Bunch riding techniques

[Ramsay]

There has been a bit of chat on bunch skills over the past months and in particular from last night's ride. Here are a few links to various websites describing the basics. All that needs to be clear is what the objective of the ride is going to be (i.e. - chain-gang or club run).

 

These are not gospel, but they do give a good general outline of what is required (it is really not difficult).

 

Despite some fairly negative comments from several members, I always like to ensure that any bunches I'm in actually ride in a decent format (which does sometimes mean I do shout a bit!). To me, it is much safer and far less stressful riding in a bunch with good etiquette, but no less enjoyable (it also looks far better and feels more professional).

 

What is really important is that everyone recognises that there are very often new people in the bunch, so to encourage and not discourage (when I first came out, I had Kenny MacD tell me the basics which was invaluable), as we all had to learn somewhere.

 

Club Runs:

 

http://www.gregarios.co.uk/cycling-club ... nique.html

 

Chain-gang/through and off:

 

http://www.gregarios.co.uk/cycling-club ... d-off.html

 

Pacline:

 

http://www.gregarios.co.uk/cycling-club ... ining.html

 

There are plenty of other webites offering similar.

 

Don’t forget to have fun!

[Richie Cross]

Thanks Ramsay.

 

I've not made it along to a chain gang yet but like the idea...work/home deciding if I can come along.

 

After reading comments from last night, it's kind of put me off as I don't want to be a hindrance or danger.

Hopefully these will help

[Ramsay]

Richie,

 

The whole idea is to learn, so don't be put off at all. Like I said, everyone has to learn, so it is better to learn in a group that is specifically targetting bunch skills (and fitness), than to go out with the likes of the renfrew bunch etc where they may not be so instructive!

 

At the end of the day, it is about having fun on the bike, but just making sure it is as safe as can be.

 

Cheers,

R

[Guest EPCC]

Richie

Don't be put off by our biching as somebody new you are not expected to know all and to be fair I don't think you will get shouted at

 

Ramsay the problem with yestetdays run was that the objectives were changed without all knowing as the two weeks before it was group ride to westferry hard on and off along the westferry if you get dropped use shortcut and regroup at top of clune the steady pace increasing all the way to Georgetown no regroup as this is mainly downhill it is normally not a problem

However last night we did a quick step slow slow quick quick slow which made it difficult

[Ramsay]

See pages 102 - 107 of this week's comic (Cyclying Weekly) for some more info on riding etiquette.

[Tony]

The link under "Club Runs" above doesn't seem clear to me. It doesn't seem to be the same bunch riding style that we generally employ on club runs. In fact I don't think I've ever seen a web page or article that explains this properly, so I've created a simple Powerpoint presentation to do it instead. I would like to run it by people with a view to using it as a reference point for new members (i.e. putting a link to it in the Beginners/Returners section, or something like that):

 

http://www.andamento.co.uk/tony/Bunch_Riding.mht

 

...have a look at it and let me know if you disagree with any of it or if you think it could be better worded. (It should open up automatically in Internet Explorer, if you are using Firefox you should be prompted to let it open a separate Internet Explorer session for you.)

 

Recently I believe the faster Sunday bunch have been using through-and-off on club runs (?) but this is adequately explained by the second link that Ramsay posted above - so no need to resort to "Death by Powerpoint"

[Ramsay]

Tony,

 

What a cracking powerpoint.

 

I know that generally the way we take a spell is as per your powerpoint, however, most club rides I've been on in the last year or so tend to go more in the through and off style, not so we can really push along, but so we are always only 2 riders abreast and never 3, which can be quite a lot on some narrower roads.

 

I guess if everyone knows both, then it can be decided as the group goes along and depending on road conditions etc.

 

Cheers,

R

[Guest EPCC]

Tony

 

Sound PP but the main bunch have been doing as Ramsay says mainly due to it being a bit safer and easier in trafic.. It also allows for all riders to have a chat with each other

[chung]

Hi All,

 

The through-and-off formation is a chaingang or racing riding style thats only been used when you would be racers decided to adapt it in the Sunday Bunch!

The truth is, it has never been the way we ride in a Sunday Run, at least not for the last 6 years anyway, it only started recently.

 

The problem with riding through-and-off (I am in a position to comment as I have ridden in both styles) is not the formation it self but the speed you ride it, it always seems to encourage you to ride fast, especially when taking your spell at the front initially going into the front right position, making the rider moving into the front left position struggling a bit to keep up with his/her partner because he had just done a hard spell on the front right position. This is when you get half wheeling happening, and you know what that leads to........

 

Personal observation also tells me that the through-and-off formation is harder to understand by new riders who have"t ridden in a bunch before. Whereas the usual formation (not sure what its called as its the norm before) where the pair at the front drops right to the back after their spells, is straight forward and easy to practice.

 

In terms of safety on narrow roads, we tend to spell up when the road condition allows it, so certainly not on narrow roads.

Remember, reading the road conditions is also part of cycling too.

 

Billy, if you want to chat to more than one of your fellow cyclist. Easy, just make sure the bunch is odd numbers! Or invite Campbell Hutcheson to prop up at the back.

There, problem solved!

 

So, I say we should just stick to riding the 2 abreast formation (spells in pairs) on Sunday Club Runs to stop confusion happening which can be dangerous and leave the through-and-off stuff for the midweek chaingangs.

 

Cheers

 

Chung

[Guest EPCC]

Chung

Would disagree with your points raised in the above post utilizing the right lane is without doubt safer and simpler to use it slows the rider to spend as long or as short as they like on the front . It is not on and off which will result in a faster bunch ride so in essence both should be used and practised

[chung]

Hello Billy,

 

Let's be honest and not beat about the bushes here, the way and reason why you ride in through-and-off formation is because you want to ride fast so to replicate a racing scenario, where you drop riders who are not as strong trying to catch up, you said so in your previous other post.

 

I did not say the through-and-off formation is dangerous to ride, it is so only if they are riders in the bunch who are not accustom to it! It's the confusion that causes the danger, not the formation. I stress again, that for a beginner, the through-and-off is harder to understand, it might not seem so to you because you know how it works.

 

How are you going to get new cyclist wanting to join the club if on their first run, they haven't a clue whats going on.

Which brings me on to another point, I think as existing club members, everyone has a duty to pass on the riding knowledge and etiquette to new members (which I'm sure that is the case) while out with the bunch for the first time, no matter which bunch they happen to ride in. Everyone starts from the beginning, we've all been there. I am not trying to get people to babysit others, but new riders need that knowledge to enjoy the bunch cycling experience.

 

Cheers

 

Chung

[DavieB]

Guys,

 

Think we are reaching the stage where we need a time out on this. Seems this all harks back to one of my posts which has I believe been taken (by some) waaaaaaaayyyyyyy out of context. I will remind everybody my post was a serious (and very valid) point made in a tongue and cheek fashion after a Thursday night "chain gang".

 

The issue was not of pace but erratic riding which was liable to cause an accident, the riding on the night was also disappointing because contrary to what several members of the bunch said that night most people there had been shown how to ride both a pace line and "through and off" by more experienced members, so there was really no excuse. I think I got pelters in some quarters but I think I was sticking up for the less experienced members who were getting a really bad lesson in bunch riding.

 

To me the issue of how you come through on the line is a red herring the last big bunch ride I was on (over the Kybher etc) was 2 up, 2 drop back (i.e. not through and off) and the erratic changes in pace were downright dangerous, people were coming through and basically stopping pedalling leaving the people at the back on the brakes. I was very vocal that day, again not winning any popularity contests, but more people need to start taking some responsibility and speaking up when things are not right.

 

In terms of pace you are never going to please everybody and it seems that the principle of trying to fit everybody into one "club run" is basically forcing square pegs into round holes. Some will struggle to keep up, others will get frustrated due to the slow pace the 2 combined make potentially painful mistakes more likely.

 

Not sure why the club is not big enough to be inclusive of everybodys objectives (have fun riding a bike, getting home in one peace for starters), with several groups leaving but trying to meet up either during or after the ride. I was on the Falkirk club website to get info for last Sundays race and it is very open about the fact that there is a training bunch and "main" bunch who presumably co-exist quite happily together with the principle that they try to meet up after the ride - seems like the application of common sense, and removes the round pegs, square holes scenario mentioned above.

 

Davie

[Tony]

I think this is quite interesting:

http://www.edinburghrc.co.uk/news/281/9 ... Chain-Gang

...the bit that's interesting (to me) is the "Continental Change" which I've not heard of before...although I have a vague memory of Martin Mulholland showing it to me about 6 or 7 years ago...maybe you could describe it in plain English as "intermittent through-and-off" rather than "continuous through-and-off" (i.e. chaingang). I suppose the idea is that you only spell up when the group decides it's time to do so, similar to the "traditional club run format" that I attempted to document with my smiley-faces thing - but you never find yourself riding three abreast. So maybe the best of both worlds.

[Darryl Gunson]

Hi

 

I've only just come across the latest posts on this thread. Having only skimmed through them, it seems to me that there is a misconception here. There are three styles of riding that people seem to be discussing, even though only two are named.

 

The first is the standard two-abreast format, where the two ok front single up and allow the next pair to the front.

 

The second is the format adopted by the quicker bunch. This is the format that Ramsay describes and Billy comments on. This is not "through and off". It is just an alternative to the standard. It does involve double spells, but is not in itself faster. That depends on the bunch.

 

The third mode is genuine "through and off" which is what I think Chung is talking about. This is for fast training type rides. It does encourage fast riding, but even this can be controlled. This is the format with two lines; one going up and the other down. You don't actually "take a spell". Rather, you "go through" and then when you get to the front you ease over into the line going back.

 

All that needs to be done to avoid confusion is to agree which format is going to be used. It is probably a good rule off thumb for the bunches that contain novices to stick to the standard format.

 

See y'all out on the road.

 

Darryl

[Darryl Gunson]

Hi

 

I've only just come across the latest posts on this thread. Having only skimmed through them, it seems to me that there is a misconception here. There are three styles of riding that people seem to be discussing, even though only two are named.

 

The first is the standard two-abreast format, where the two at the front single up and allow the next pair to the front.

 

The second is the format adopted by the quicker bunch. This is the format that Ramsay describes and Billy comments on. This is not "through and off". It is just an alternative to the standard. It does involve double spells, but is not in itself faster. That depends on the bunch.

 

The third mode is genuine "through and off" which is what I think Chung is talking about. This is for fast training type rides. It does encourage fast riding, but even this can be controlled. This is the format with two lines; one going up and the other down. You don't actually "take a spell". Rather, you "go through" and then when you get to the front you ease over into the line going back.

 

All that needs to be done to avoid confusion is to agree which format is going to be used. It is probably a good rule off thumb for the bunches that contain novices to stick to the standard format.

 

See y'all out on the road.

 

Darryl

[DavieB]

Spot on Darryl & Tony..the method of riding as described by Chung and others as "through and off" was first described to me as a "continental change" and I think the continued mis-reference to "t and o" in the above and other threads is not helping.

 

D

[Tony]

OK - I need pictures to help me understand -

 

...so this is the standard two-abreast format ("traditional"):

http://www.andamento.co.uk/tony/Bunch_R ... tional.mht

 

...and (correct me if I'm wrong) this is the method the quicker bunch have been using recently ("continental"):

http://www.andamento.co.uk/tony/Bunch_R ... nental.mht

 

For my next trick I am going to Powerpoint the "Dashing White Sergeant" as I've always struggled with that one (can just about manage the "Canadian Barn Dance")

 

Thanks

Tony

[Guest]

Tony, the Argentinian Rhumba was always my downfall. The judges always docked me points due to my posture. Explaining that I have a cycling induced humph cut no ice with them. I was Penilee Youth Club Macarena Champion o f 1982 tho.

[slowalan]

Easy the Young Pen !

[Guest EPCC]

My final word Daryl is spot on with continental it is not quicker or slower it is in my opinion safer the main point is it doesn't matter which you use along as the bunch knows before you leave or change it .

Chung I am disappointed that you think I would deliberately go out on a Sunday bunch ride to drop somebody I can honestly say I have never been party to a run that has ever had the goal of dropping people

The only time it may happen is on the Thursday night chain gang which is all about streaching yourself and even that allows for a regtoup

[Colin H]

Ooooofffffftttttt.....this all sounds so difficult and scary