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Not naming any names,  not pointing the finger at anyone in particular and i dont want anyone else to do it either. Everyone has made mistakes from time to time so this applies to everyone including myself.

There was a moment tonight on the rise between Kilmacolm and Bridge of Weir when  Stevie, through no fault of his own, was forced onto the white line as a car approached due to someone switching from the left line to the right without looking.   Not a pleasant couple of seconds seeing this unfold in front and was only a few cms from turning nasty very quickly.

On a couple of other occassions tonight riders were crossing the white line to move up the bunch or maintain their position. If there is good visibility and there are no cars about (and importantly you check there are no cars!) and its clear, then crossing the line briefly then fair enough. No complaints about that and ive done it myself. But doing it going round a bend when you dont know what is coming or even worse doing it when there are  cars coming the other way then forcing your way back into the line so you can avoid them - then not cool at all.

Try and remember it is a training ride not a race  so look out for one another. Actually same applies to races too.

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Agree.

On the other hand it's hard when it's a big group with riders that have different fitness levels to keep a consistent chain moving. You end up looking over your shoulder quite a bit to make sure you don't step into someone's line. Not ideal as you also need to keep an eye on your front wheel, potholes, cars etc. 

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Jan is quite right, the safety of participants has to be paramount. This is the case whether it is a race or not. However, people are always less inclined to look after others and to take risks in races, despite the commissars’ warnings about crossing the line etc. 

The JWCC Thursday night chaingang has changed from the initial idea introduced by Charlie. It was conceived as an opportunity for club members to train in a much more controlled context than the free for all of the Renfrew Bunch. 

It now resembles a race. The ethos seems to be to drop people and to go through the line at ever increasing speeds. It has always been the case that everyone looks after themselves, but the pace seems higher and less steady now with lots  of jumping, surging and switching. Indeed, the fact that there are points on offer (which is good fun btw) has added a competitive element to the mix that unfortunately makes it more likely that people will take a few risks. 

The roads are also poor in places which, at race pace, can lead people to switch line to avoid crashing.

What to do? In my view, given that we all know the course and where the bad bits are, we should refrain from all out full gas efforts until the bunch is safely through them.  There are areas such as the Westferry, The Clune, The Georgetown, where full gas might be the order of the day, but  perhaps a less full on effort at various ‘bad bits’ would be sensible. This only needs to be an informal common understanding. After all, it is our club run which means we can  make it more controlled, in the interests of safety and providing a positive experience for riders.

 

Ohyadancer!:smash:uzi

 

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Agree with all said above.  Getting to a bit of a crossroads maybe with bunch so big. One route would be cut back to just JWCC members or another route might be to start an APR format, last night we could have had 3 groups of 10, keep the regroup at top of clune but try and set the time gaps to make it realistic for someone from first group to get the clune points. Just a thought and up for debate on whether there is the same APR format after clune.

For sure I agree we ride tempo on the bad bits particularly the rise from the traffic lights - which is a shame as it is a good attack point but safety must be first. I'm sure it will eventually get resurfaced.

 

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When the numbers are big an APR format might be the answer - the Gales do that  (as does the Northside bunch) my concern would be if the faster group make the catch on the west ferry.  In some respects the big bunch has been fine before the Clune its been after that there have been issues. So maybe ride as normal to there then set off in groups from the top? If someone gets put in the slow group then dont see it as a slight but as an opportunity - a head start for the finish!

I'd like to see it remain inclusive and have guys like John, Scott and co welcome - the bunch benefits from their experience.

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I for one like the idea of an APR format. But note that it is really a race. When the groups come together it might be ‘interesting’ to say the least and potentially dangerous. So we need to be aware of that if we go down that route.

Taking ideas from Paul and Ian above a few things suggest themselves:

1. At all times make members aware and mindful of group safety. A quick talk at the beginning should do the job.

2. When the bunch reaches a certain size ( say 20 or maybe smaller) we split into two groups. A group of ten, working together is very satisfying. Larger groups trying to put the hurt on are sometimes a bit dangerous.

3. This does present the problem of what’s fair re the points. I don’t have an answer to that except to agree that the time gaps should be fair. Or, we have points for each group.

 

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Think there was more issues coming back than out, so here’s my thoughts only have groups on way back , and only if more than 15 riders .

one of the main problems last night was towards the back there was only one line and it was halfway across the road , maybe remind riders that they stay on the inside if not going through   And when they try to go through and can’t should make there way to the back of the line .

Going towards the last 500 m there was about 3/4 abreast but not going through that dose t help.

However wouldn’t change too much as it’s still fun 

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Being discussed by committee. Anyone want to post warnings on the Renfrew Bunch fb and "sat morning bike run " messenger group? if not then I'll do it. Tell people this is not a race and to consider others.

Any more organisation into an APR by us is bad and sucks us back into full race mode.

Anyone in jwcc kit should tell folk this is a JWCC ride and ask them to ride safely. Difficult at 45kph I know but we should stand up for the club. I'll start next week. Noone likes a big mouth in a bunch but I am sure the regulars will understand.

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The last 500 meters is a full on sprint with points allocated, similar to a race situation.  If the points matter to people, and everyone has a competitive urge, then it is inevitable that we will see the same things as we do in a proper race. That is:  sitting in, trying to move up the line, taking risks, going over the  line etc. The larger the group, the more of this we will see. Smaller groups makes sense to me. 

This may mean seperate chaingangs. 

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Haven't been anywhere near the Thursday chain gang in too long a while, so my comments are tempered with that in mind and should be read in the open, positive context in which they are offered.  Jann's post is uncomfortable reading, hence the post.

One should look out for one's club mates and have their and your own safety in mind over and above the fun level being enjoyed. People have jobs and families to consider and while most understand and accept a level of risk they have a right, I think,  not to be exposed to unwarranted risk by other's misguided or selfish actions - I think that's a given. Yep, mistakes and misjudgements happen but when they do you've got to learn from them.

I have always taken the view that the chain gang was a training exercise  and not a race.  Every bit to do with learning and developing ' at speed' bunch riding skills  as it was about building or honing fitness IMO.  A bit of very welcome sport/fun was thrown in towards the end of the run along the Georgetown, but  even then the start of the sport crept out to BofW if not before - mia culpa on occasion.  If the ethos is now, as suggested by Darryl it might be, to merely drop people and continually ramp up the pace, surely it defeats the purpose of it being a training exercise, where fellow club mates can develop fitness and skills in a non race environment to allow them to enter the racing scene suitably equipped.  Definitely misses the point if guys are getting it wrong for sake of points on an in-house spreadsheet or because they just don't understand or care about what's going on. 

Take a newish rider who is spending the whole time merely hanging on.  They are not going to learn anything other than how to hang on.  And if they are riding at their limits their technique/discipline will be ragged - Billy's point above of not going through and a single line - but not knowing what to do to correct things - accident waiting to happen perhaps.  

My understanding was the chain should not be broken if at all avoidable (not always doable in practice and guys will get pinged off the back but certainly the goal to aim for).  Therefore ideally you have 2 clear lines working as a single unit to maintain that unit's best pace - not necessarily that of the strongest/weakest rider. If there are 2 clear lines of riders and the lines are correctly worked, there should be no need except in extreme circumstances for someone being force across the white line, and even then the guys at the front can give a call and manage the group's line/pace to suit.  Personally I think if  the chain is being smashed in the first mile or so, those getting shelled out would be as well riding the course solo from the get go. If you've not got 2 lines then you've not got a chain.  If this is happening every week, then the 'APR esque' approach suggested may be valid to rank riders' abilities. 

Galeb, you mentioned looking over your shoulder.  One shouldn't need to look behind. It's the rider behind's responsibility to ensure he is not half wheeling you (the rider in front), allowing to change your line when required without a touch of wheels. You can't see your rear wheel but he can, and should position himself accordingly adjusting his line to yours. Harks to the point about bunch skills. The same rider behind you shouldn't be coming through until its his turn. If he's doing it right then no need to look behind. If he ain't doing it right then a word in his ear and some learning required on his part.

I'm liking the suggestions put forward but perhaps a general re think of the aims of the Thursday chain gang are needed, even if only to refocus minds and have everyone clear on what's expected of them and what can be expected from the exercise itself. I say this in full knowledge that things may have moved on since I last turned out for a Thursday evening run.

On a wider point, is there a potential duty of care on the part of the club to ensure rider safety if the chain gang is being 'run' or posted (advertised via the website) by JWCC?  No doubt someone will correct me on the legalities. Nonetheless, in our mad litigious world I could envisage a situation where someone is seriously wiped out and accuses another rider of being reckless, only for that 'reckless' rider to claim JWCC had a responsibility to ensure the ride was properly conducted.  Is this potential for liability increased if non JWCC riders are taking part? I genuinely don't know the answer, so over to the committee.

Might catch up with you guys for a bit over the summer if events allow it. In the meantime stay safe guys, enjoy the miles and have fun in the sun while it lasts.

M

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22 minutes ago, Alan McLean said:

Being discussed by committee. Anyone want to post warnings on the Renfrew Bunch fb and "sat morning bike run " messenger group? if not then I'll do it. Tell people this is not a race and to consider others.

Any more organisation into an APR by us is bad and sucks us back into full race mode.

Anyone in jwcc kit should tell folk this is a JWCC ride and ask them to ride safely. Difficult at 45kph I know but we should stand up for the club. I'll start next week. Noone likes a big mouth in a bunch but I am sure the regulars will understand.

 

I dont think warnings on Renfrew bunch page are needed - it's only a handful of guys who know us and they havent caused any issues.  It's always been a bit vague on this - the last time this came up it was sort of agreed that strictly speaking it isn't a club ride. It was a Charlie and friends training ride then Charlie had his injury and i started posting it up. 

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Would prefer that the committee dose not get involved in this , we can police it ourselves, IMO if we change this too much , more than half the bunch will go out as aFB/ other social media group , and all we will have left is a slowish chain gang which was not the point of this ride .

i have no issues with sitting in we all do it but let’s keep the structure and if your not going through move to the left 

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32 minutes ago, Moi said:

Would prefer that the committee dose not get involved in this , we can police it ourselves,

Hi Billy, No need for the committee to be involved as plenty experienced riders in the chaingang and making very good contributions to this thread. Some of the committee are participants in the chaingang so it is going to get talked about though. 

It's a serious topic and I'm glad it is being treated as such. Apart from the risk to members there is also the risk of damage to the club's reputation (I have had some negative feedback from 3rd parties who have seen the chaingang in action) so please do crack on with agreeing a way to make this v successful group work. 

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I agree that warnings on FB are not necessary. I have no problem  with the Couriers and a few others joining as guests. We are all friends. 

The isssue is safety. And that has imo become more pronounced right now because of the evolved nature of the ride. Large, fast bunches in a race type situation are more dangerous than smaller, steadier non-race type situations.

No radical change is required, but as above, we need a clear mutual understanding of what is expected in this bunch. 

Whilst noting Alan’s objection to APR type revisions, I still think when the group is v large 2 or even 3 groups are the way to go. My own preference would be for these to be  ‘selfcontained’ in the  sense that they are not motivated by catching and ‘beating’ those in front. That way each group can have a wheel about at its own pace. 

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Does that not defeat the purpose, it was always meant to be challenging , I haven’t been out in all the rides so can’t say I have noticed a growth in risky occurrences , this is not a club ride imo it was a fast group ride for a group of cycling friends, whom happen to be members of the club , however others have always been invited , however I now feel that trying to change it to what it’s not is the wrong thing to do.

There are plenty of experience in the group and a gentle reminder of what’s expected is all that’s required no more .

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Speaking as one of those riders who gets pinged out early, I find it frustrating to get stopped at lights in Bishopton only for the front riders to sprint away, dropping those who can't keep up (me!) even with a full gas start. A steadier pace until we get to the Westferry would be helpful. 

Having said that, it gives me the opportunity to time trial round the rest of the course and hopefully pick up people who're dropped a bit further on. 

Can't comment on the safety aspect, as I'm never close enough to see it, but some of the riding I have seen while I'm in the bunch is a bit erratic and would never be tolerated at the track. That could be down to the state of the the road and the size of the bunch.

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3 hours ago, Mark O said:

 

On a wider point, is there a potential duty of care on the part of the club to ensure rider safety if the chain gang is being 'run' or posted (advertised via the website) by JWCC?  No doubt someone will correct me on the legalities. Nonetheless, in our mad litigious world I could envisage a situation where someone is seriously wiped out and accuses another rider of being reckless, only for that 'reckless' rider to claim JWCC had a responsibility to ensure the ride was properly conducted.  Is this potential for liability increased if non JWCC riders are taking part? I genuinely don't know the answer, so over to the committee.

I believe there is some recent case law around this which says ( and I paraphrase) if you are an experienced rider, you understand and accept the risks that are involved in bunch riding. Doesn't mean we shouldn't be thinking about our colleagues riding beside us though  

Look forward to seeing you back out with the bunch at some point.

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29 minutes ago, Moi said:

What’s the negative feedback, it wouldn’t be car drivers perhaps 

Cyclists. Experienced ones, passing similar comments to some expressed here. Maybe better to call it constructive criticism. 

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Still being relatively new to the bunch and fast group riding I am still learning and hope that any transgressions on my part are viewed in that light.

The larger more varied group certainly makes a more steady chain difficult but if it wasn't for the open and inclusive nature of the club/group I would not have come back after being spat out the back at every available opportunity last summer and quite possibly would not have joined the club or been in the position fitness wise to take part this year.

For what its worth, canvassing a view from the visitor that I brought last night he reckoned that the group was, in safety terms exceed only by the northside Scratch group and much safer than the southside bunch.





 

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I volunteer to discreetly let the ‘friends of JWCC’ know the safety concerns and get their commit about the sensible ride zones as I know most of them quite well.  Separately, my vote is for apr from start as I am not too worried if a faster bunch catches an earlier group on Westferry, the faster bunch should know well to single out in that scenario and I would personally ‘vocally reinforce’ that situation,  and it would be good for early group to get clune points for example. Guys, this is just leisure remember, we must do what we can to be safe. 

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1 hour ago, martin said:

Cyclists. Experienced ones, passing similar comments to some expressed here. Maybe better to call it constructive criticism. 

Only constructive if passed on if not it’s hear say 

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I for one am not up for changing this to APR type thing and will train during the day, it was a big bunch not because it’s unsafe but because it’s fun , it would be sad if we change it based on opinions of risk. It would be far better if it stays as is and maybe we go harder on the west ferry to thin it out. And if it’s the way back that’s the issue those that take the short cut wait until those that do the full route goes then they go after 5 minutes as it’s unlikely that the gap would get made 

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This is interesting.

i haven’t been out much these past couple of years as I could see the way it was going with the points make prizes scenario but when I was out a couple of weeks ago a few changes, perhaps not for the better, were apparent:

a) it’s faster. Yes, I understand it’s supposed to be fast but there was an unspoken agreement that things would  be sensible until Westferry. Now it’s a Renfrew Bunch like blast off from the gun. How are any newbies going to cope with this? If your goal is to destroy yourself and put those around you at risk then just go out with the Renfrew Bunch.

b ) This points thing. It’s not necessarily a bad thing but it’s not what the ride set out to be. The night I was out there were 6 going through along the Westferry with 12 hanging on. On the Georgetown most of those same 6 sat in while some of those who hung on along the Westferry towed  them along. Why? So they could sprint for points at the finish. It’s a structured training session not a race.

c) riding on the wrong side of the road, uphill, on a blind bend. Do I really have to say anything else?

d) the issues aren’t caused by our guests. Guys like Richie Provan and John Craig know what they are doing and actually set a good example that others could follow.

 

 

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